DNB now equivalent to MD/MS/MCh/DM degrees

The Diplomate of National Board (DNB) degrees have finally been equated with MD/MS and DM/M.Ch for teaching jobs. The DNB degrees in broad specialities will be completely equivalent to the MD/MS degree; and the DNB degree in super-specialities will be equivalent to the DM/M.Ch degree.The latest notification from the Government of India can be downloaded from here.

The Union Ministry of Health and Family Welfare (MoHFW) and the Medical Council of India (MCI) were earlier in a standoff. The MCI guidelines were formulated by the Post-graduate Medical Education Committee (the PG Committee) constituted under Section 20 of the Indian Medical Council Act, 1956. It was on the basis of the recommendation made by the PG Committee in 1993 that the Government stipulated in October 1994 that for teaching appointments in broad specialities, a DNB degree holder was required to have at least one year’s experience as tutor/ registrar/ demonstrator, or an equivalent post, in a recognised undergraduate medical college. Similarly, for teaching posts in super specialities, a DNB awardee was required to undergo two years’ training in a recognised medical college with recognised post-graduate degree course in the concerned speciality. The Health Ministry had said that its Diplomate of National Board degrees will be treated on a par with the MD/MS and DM/M.Ch degrees awarded by Indian medical institutions for the purpose of all appointments including teaching posts in medical institutions.

Every year, there are about 25,000 medical graduates of whom 9,000 obtain MCI-approved post-graduate degrees and about 3,000 qualify with DNB degrees. But employment opportunities in medical institutions were significantly limited for DNB degree holders because of the MCI guidelines. There was also scope for at least doubling the number and also institute national programmes in areas where there is shortage of faculty. But the MCI directives prevented many institutions from offering their facilities for training DNB students.

While the Indian Medical Council Act only mandates the MCI to prescribe under-graduate courses and degrees, as well as approve the corresponding institutions offering them, it has only advisory and recommendatory powers as regards post-graduate courses and degrees. However, according to the NBE, the MCI had in recent years begun to impose guidelines for post-graduate education as well. These guidelines, as formulated by the PG Committee, rendered a whole cadre of DNB-qualified post-graduate medical students ineligible for teaching posts in medical institutions. This assumed authority, the NBE contended, went beyond the provisions of the Indian Medical Council Act.

The requirement of additional experience was reasonable earlier because DNB students did not do any dissertation for their degrees. But now since DNB students also have to do dissertations, there is no rationale any longer for insisting on additional teaching experience. Moreover, all over the world the paradigm of medical education has advanced and today it is integrated with clinical science.

In 2003, the MCI enumerated specific reasons why it could not accept the equivalence of DNB degrees with MD/MS and DM/M.Ch degrees. However, both the Government and the NBE find no merit in the MCI’s arguments and have rejected them. In August 2004, and again in September 2005, the MoHFW notified that institutions conducting MCI-approved post-graduate courses were also permitted to run DNB courses. However, in November 2005, the MCI unilaterally instructed all medical institutions to refrain from this practice without seeking the Government’s consent as required.

The National Board of Examinations (NBE) was established in 1975 with the aim of elevating standards of post-graduate medical examinations and ensuring uniformity across the country. The NBE became an independent autonomous body under the MoHFW in 1982. The Board has a system of accreditation of hospitals and institutions having adequate trained manpower and infrastructure for training students towards post-graduate and post-doctoral degrees of the Board.

Entry to the DNB programme is through a very stringent qualifying Central Entrance Test and an institutional-level speciality-specific aptitude evaluation. Qualifying for the degree is through an extremely rigorous evaluation both in theory and clinical knowledge in which the pass percentage is only about 30-35 per cent.

Medical experts say that, by enabling the large number of NBE-qualified post-graduate medical students to enter the country’s mainstream health care system, this move would help offset to a great extent the shortage of teachers in medical institutions that could arise as a result of the envisaged expansion. In fact, this shortage is in some sense artificial because the guidelines of the Medical Council of India (MCI) rendered a whole cadre of qualified doctors ineligible for teaching posts.

#respond

71 Comments

Dr.Chakaravarthy  on March 10th, 2009

In a democratic country like India, where every citizen is given freedom; why is MCI behaving so irrationally, with a Capitalistic mentality? Let the MCI put real questions to themselves closing their eyes. It’s inhuman to cheat the Medical profession, with the result the whole humanity(Indians) is cheated. Hope this defect is cured at the earliest.

Dr.Chakravarthy  on March 10th, 2009

It’s for decades MCI is imbecile in quarelling with NBE,derecognizing the importance of DNB ?any selfish motives?). It’s high time MCI become truly medical with pure and healthy heart and try honestly to cure itself. We hope this latest Gazette puts an end to the inhuman discrimination shown to DNB.

Rahul  on March 14th, 2009

It is really unfortunate that the future of DNB graduates is made to depend on the false ego’s of the few MCI members who have themselves been critised of being the most corrupt.Hope MCI respects the notification in the Gazzete Of INDIA and not be rigid in it’s stand.

rahul  on March 14th, 2009

It’s sad but the truth and these comments come after suffering from the high headedness of the institution like MCI.I fail to understand why for god sake is the MCI so rigid .Is it above the Union ministry ?
Is MCI so autonomous that it has no boundries?
Can no one make MCI fall in place and do justice to all??

raj  on March 16th, 2009

Sir,

Kindly note despite the recent Gazette Notification, MCI has refused to accept DNB pass (though always equivalent to MD/MS) even for the post of SR, leave apart for Asst. Prof.!!!!

They have clearly told the Pvt. Colleges that in case you require MCI recognition and continuation of your college, DO NOT HIRE ANY DNB Candidate.

I am a sufferer

Who cares?  on March 16th, 2009

Who cares for the marginalised? So what if you are a Doctor and have devoted half of your life in studying?

Why MCI should bother about you and your family? They have to Mint money for their family!!

So what if you just get peanuts compared to your less-read cousins/friends.

Now despite gazette notification MCI for the recognition of DNB specialists for the
purpose of registration as specialist qualification constituted a Sub-Committee comprising of Dr.Ved Prakash Mishra, member, Executive Committee, and Dr.D.K. Sharma, member, PG Committee to deliberate in the matter and submit the report.

You any one can be above Law in India, because you need to have Money, and as per reports MCI the den of Corruption always had MOOOOOONEY HI MOOOOOONEY

raj khosla  on March 18th, 2009

The biggest opposer to DNB in MCI are Dr Ved Prakash Mishra and DR Ketan Deasai who have their own hidden agenda to oppose DNB equivalence to MD/MS of MCI

drjain pb  on March 24th, 2009

DNB is eqiuvelant infact better than M.D./M,S.as there is no reservation and it purely on open test & merit and the exam is rigrous . MCI should accept it whole heartely & keeps politics away. In long run it will help medical education.Sir M.D./M.S.are conducted by different university where uniform standard is not maintained.There is lot of unfairmeens in enterenc exam. I hope gov should come forward & end this game forever.

Sridhar  on March 27th, 2009

Did any of you see the Gazzette order in the link provided? It is for the schedule of Pharmacology – not all specialities!

!!

Dr.Anshu  on March 29th, 2009

@ Sridhar>

No. Schedule one lists all colleges and degrees which have been recognized by MCI (can be accessed from MCI website). It is a dynamic continuously changing list. The notification simply says where the words have to be inserted. And in the next paragraph says that it deals with all specialities and superspecialities

drshaan  on March 30th, 2009

the mci is getting crores of rupees from the medical colleges in return of granting more pg seats which will be sold in the range of 5olakhs tomore than a crore for one seat.. the mci is now working for the private colleges..it has systematically destroyed the sanctity of medical education for monetary favours..god save the medical graduates and the peopleof india …

raj khosla  on April 6th, 2009

I think any of us who has MCI inspection in college now onwards and MCI inspector opposes DNB taechers one should go to court quoting latest Govt Gazzette.Has anybody faced MCI inspection post this notification/What was MCI inspectors attitude? I think its only matter of time that MCI will have to accept the fact of equivalence.Let MCI itself come out with figure that what’s passing % of MCI PG degree holders taking DNB exams and passing it.They will immdtly know where they stand.

dr thakur  on April 17th, 2009

i faced mci inspection in my college on 12/4/2009 and mci inspectors totally refused to accept dnb as a teching faculty even for the post of S R leave apart ASS. PROF. even after recent notification

raj khosla  on April 18th, 2009

This can happen only in India.MCI not accepting a dasgnated extraordinary gazzete of rules ISSUED BY GOI.Is MCI above Govt of India? What’s the status of our court cases regarding the issues? MCI is infact a body just like BBCI whose officials are elected to the office rather than selection by Govt.Hence the disparity and enjoy certain status especially with advent of private medical colleges who are ready to go to any extent to please them .But mci is trying to grow bigger than their shoes.I hope Govt itself teaches them a lesson and show them their places in law.All aspirants of bigger MCI post likes of Dr Vedprakash Mishra will meanwhile fight to have MCI’S UPPER HAND

Dr. Sailendra  on April 28th, 2009

The sole responsibility for making intellectual people’s (DNBs) lives miserable lies with MCI. In elections, Indians usually change the governing teams, once in 5 years. Even the illeterates can’t make these ruthless acts persist and vote against. But, what’s happening here? There’s no answer which a legal court gives. Even the Union Govt.’s Gazettes are not given importance. IS INDIA LOSING ITS INDEPENDECE? WHY DO THESE COURTS POSTPONE THEIR FINAL JUDGEMENT, !FOR YEARS! ..ALAS…

Dr. Chakri  on April 29th, 2009

There has to be an ehical, legal answer to this persistent menace of MCI. In the recent court case held at Delhi High court, the final judgement was postponed till July 2009. This is quite obnoxious. Once that court gives its final judgement, suppose, that case will be transferred to another court, requiruing years to give any judgement. The citizens of India are given freedom to elect their favourite person every 3-5 years. Why do hon’ courts lacking any clarity to give judgement? Why do the Govt. playing with intellectual’s lives?

rg  on May 2nd, 2009

I am entering the debate again
very unfortunate rather ridiculous that MCI is against the DNB ? Why should that happen no one knows(probably for money)
I think Again with coming of new MCI boss the fight is going to be tough.
Has any body ever been to the BJ medical college urology department??
No full time teaching faculty but yes we have honarary urologists coming there and head of Dept,is rarely interested in teaching.
I have given that example as that department is under the inchargeship of our head of MCI??
Hope some day the better sense shall prevail and the rightful satatus of DNB will be restored.
Wait for a son of some influential person joing DNB and the things will fall in place..

Dr. Chakri  on May 6th, 2009

Delhi’s high court gave its final judgement on 18-04-09. High court advised Natboard to modify/uphold the position of DNB degree holders and give its amended final doctrine within 1 week. Now, it already has crossed 2 weeks. Many DNBs are tense. Still no response! Many of us are doubting whether our country INDIA is losing its sovereignity/democracy/ceasing to be a republic. Even the major court’s decisions are not given any seriousness/importance.

Dr.Vanajakshi  on May 12th, 2009

It’s nearly a month back Delhi High Court gave its final hearing. Natboard is asked to modify/upgrade in certain aspects. The High Court gave one week time for these alterations to be made. Alas! Till today nothing has been done. What’s happening? Is Natboard against its own self? We want immediate action and adequ8ate answer for this.

Dr. Apurva  on May 13th, 2009

What’s happening? It’s more than 3 weeks now since the Delhi high court gave its judjement. The court advised Natboard that it can take 1 week for re-setting the revised guidelines according to the Court’s judjement. But? till date (13-05-09) nothing happens. Is this a democratic country? Is it that, peoples problems (or) sufferings can’t find any answer?

Dr. Anshu  on May 15th, 2009

I came across this news item of May 2009 , but have not heard the same news confirmed by my college authorities yet. http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/05/stories/2009030553850400.htm

Can someone confirm this news item?

Dr. Manish Shah  on June 3rd, 2009

Hello Dr. Anshu and others,

I am a Radiologist who recently suffered blunt of this judgement in real life. I was working as Associate Professor and one fine day the Management of college refused to accept my DNB degree for mci inspection. We must unite and fight this issue at National level.

We have started a discussion on iradix website where more than 30 doctors have already participated in this discussion. Here is the link

http://www.iradix.in/Forum/Residents-Corner/DNB-Radiology/recognition-of-dnb.html

Expect to see you there with solution or suggestion. Thank you
Dr. Manish

Dr.Anshu  on June 3rd, 2009

Update from minutes of an MCI meeting
http://www.mciindia.org/meetings/PG/2009/pgmn11.5.09.pdf

See from Page 40 onwards

The General Body of the Council at its meeting held on 17.10.1993 on the basis of approved recommendation of the Postgraduate Committee decided as under:-
“It is recommended that for teaching appointments in the broad specialities the holders of Diplomate NBE should have at least 1(one) year teaching experience as a Tutor/ Registrar/ Demonstrator or equivalent post in a recognized medical college imparting undergraduate teaching and training for appointment as Lecturer.

Regarding the candidates holding Diplomate NBE in superspeciality subjects, the training shall be for 2 (two) years in a recognized medical college having recognized postgraduate medical degree in the concerned speciality for appointment as a Lecturer.”

- The matter of eligibility of DNB qualification holder for admission to DM/M.Ch. courses was deliberated in the PG Committee meeting held on 28.11.1994 wherein the Committee extended provision of “two years teaching experience in a recognized medical college having recognized postgraduate medical degree in the concerned speciality applicable to DNB holder for being eligible for appointment as Lecturer’, as referred to in the decision of the General Body of the Council at its meeting dated 17.10.1993.

- Further, the Postgraduate Committee of the Council at its meeting held on 10.9.1998 considered the issue of equivalence of DNB qualifications with that of MCI recognized MD/MS or DM/ M.Ch. qualifications and decided that for teaching appointments in the broad specialities, DNB qualification holder with one year teaching experience as a Tutor/Registrar/Demonstrator or equivalent post in a recognized medical college imparting undergraduate teaching and training can be appointed. Further, with regard to holders of DNB qualification in superspeciality
subjects, the required training shall be of 2(two) years in a recognized medical college having recognized postgraduate course in the concerned speciality can be appointed
as Lecturer. The aforesaid decision of the PG Committee dated 10.9.1998 was approved by the General Body of the Council at its meeting held on 29.10.1998.

MORE EXCERPTS FROM THE MINUTES:

(a) The reasons for not equating DNB degrees with MD/MS/DM/M.Ch. are as follows:-
(1) Admissions to DNB course is only by qualifying examination whereas admission to postgraduate course is by competent examination in all States and for all colleges.
(2) A definite teaching faculty along with other infrastructural facilities as prescribed in the regulations governing the postgraduate education by the Council has to be made
whereas for DNB training the faculty possessing required teaching experience is not a pre-requisite. Moreover, the said courses by and large are conducted in non-teaching hospitals and are under the supervision of consultants who are by and large not eligible to be qualified teacher in terms of MCI regulations.
(3) The facilities of basic sciences training which is essential and vital for postgraduate teaching and training is non-existent in such non-teaching hospitals. Some facilities of para-clinical departments like Pathology, Microbiology, Biochemistry may be available but the facilities of pre-clinical and other para-clinical departments namely that of Anatomy, Physiology, Community Medicine, Forensic Medicine are nonexistent.
The said facilities even in case where they are available are ‘service oriented’ and not ‘teaching oriented’.
(4) The candidates possessing postgraduate courses i.e. MD/MS/DM/M.Ch. in recognized teaching institutions are trained in hospitals attached to such institutions where the clinical material is available in terms of variety and quantity sufficient enough for imparting of the hands on training to the postgraduate students. On the other hand the DNB candidates are training on paying beds which mainly cater to private patients and insufficient hands on training is imparted resulting in defeat the very purpose of practical training for the postgraduate students.
(5) The regular teaching institutions have a multi-disciplinary approach for orientation of the postgraduate trainees whereby they have a wider interaction with different aspects of medicine whereas the training of DNB students for want of required facilities as are available in a medical college are denied of this multi-disciplinary approach of teaching and training.
(6) The postgraduate teachers as contemplated by the Medical Council of India are to be whole-time in nature whereas the teaching and training conducted for DNB courses is by and large by consultants who are either part-time or are honorary in nature.
(7) The students training for MD/MS is for 3 years duration and as of now is residential in character. Such a situation is not applicable in regard to the trainees for DNB courses.

- The regulations on Postgraduate Medical Education, 2000 mandates 3 years teaching experience with recognized postgraduate qualification as minimum eligibility for admission of a person as Lecturer/Assistant Professor in a medical college. One year teaching experience after broad speciality and 2 years experience after superspeciality for DNB candidates does not equate them with such a prescribed eligibility for want of 3 years experience gained by a regular postgraduate student in a teaching institution during the period of his postgraduate training. This imitation cannot be overcome in any mode and manner at any given point of time until and unless the concerned degree holders are required to work as a resident for 3 years all over again on residential basis in a teaching institution.

- The concept in regard to utilization of the unutilized facilities in medical college was also deemed to be incorrect as the intake capacity in the postgraduate courses is fixed commensurate with the available teaching faculty, clinical material and infrastructural facilities available which are necessary for maintaining desired standards of training and hence there is nothing which can be said to be an unutilized/surplus component.

- The Committee is aware that there could be situations where the number of postgraduate seats may not be commensurate with the number of available postgraduate teachers. As a matter of fact, the Postgraduate Regulations, 2000 prescribes a ceiling on the number of students permissible in a teaching unit. As per the governing regulations against a teaching unit which ought to have a complement of 3 teachers that the first unit being headed by a person not below the rank of Professor along with a Associate Professor and Assistant Professor and the subsequent unit, if any, to be headed by the person not below the rank of Associate Professor along with 2 Assistant Professors/Lecturers being a minimum must.
- Constituting a possibility that in unit 1 all the 3 professors constitutes the teaching complement are recognized postgraduate teachers yet the number of students that can be registered with degree against the said unit shall be 2 per year and in case of diploma it would be one diploma per unit in addition to the 2 degree students. Thus in any case the total number of registration of degree and diploma taken together in one unit in one year shall not exceed 3 (2+1) provided 3 postgraduate teachers are available. In subjects which do not have diploma against the available 3 teachers still the number of registered students shall be restricted to 2 per year.
- At the cost of repeation, the Committee would like to emphatically said that teacher taught ratio is not the only parameter which is viewed in isolation for the purposes of according permission of starting of postgraduate courses or augmenting of its annual intake, the other parameters like infrastructural facilities, clinical material, teaching and training facilities are also given equal emphasis in a holistic manner.
- Prescribing of the upper limit of the permissibility of the annual intake is not only intake of teacher student ratio of 1:1 but also is aimed at having a ratio with number of teaching unit.
- In this context, it may be noted that a minimum bed strength is prescribed for a postgraduate teaching unit which is of minimum 30 beds in case of broad speciality and 20 beds in case of super speciality. Meaning thereby that in a unit with postgraduate teachers wherein only degree course is permitted with an annual intake of 2 seats and the duration of the course being 3 years, the number of postgraduate students shall be 6 at a given point of time with ratio of bed strength or student ratio is 1:5. Therefore, the governing ratio automatically of the teachers taught is also tagged with bed strength: the student.
- The Committee is conscious of the fact that the bed strength does not contemplate number of beds but the patients of desired variety facilitating the appropriate orientation in regard to hands on training. An emphasis is also prescribed in regard to the overall clinical material and the prescribed bed strength viewed in the form of occupancy rate. By and large the governing practice adopted by the Council is that a minimum of 80% occupancy is a must for granting of permission for postgraduate course.
- All these parameters have been prescribed by the Council upon due application of mind with required emphasis on the standards of teaching and training at the postgraduate level whereby the postgraduate students is upto the desired level in terms of being able to discharge the prescribed competence catalogued in the regulations.
The stringent parameters that have been prescribed are solely made to ensure maintenance and adherence of the academic standards governing teaching and training for the postgraduate students.
- Taking note of these considerations, the General Body of the Council had emphasized that all efforts need to be taken to ensure that no duplication takes place in regard to the streams including modalities of admissions, teaching and training methods and also availing of the available infrastructure in an institution.
- The academic fall-outs therefore out of any liberal approach would be causing a definite prejudice to the standards and legitimate expectations out of a well structured postgraduate teaching programme. As such, the Committee taking stock of it is of the considered opinion that the position adopted by the General Body of the Council in regard to non-grant of permission for running of DNB courses in recognized teaching institutions needs to be maintained in the larger academic interest and standards of postgraduate medical education in the country.
The Committee also took note of the fact that a Study Group constituted by the Council that included Director, PGIMER, Chandigarh; Director, SGPGI, Lucknow and representative from AIIMS along with Dr. Ved Prakash Mishra, the then Chairman, Postgraduate Committee, MCI had dealt on the issue of reduction of long duration of super speciality courses without compromising on high quality training and had observed that It was categorically brought out by all the 3 learned experts that there was variability in the duration of super speciality courses till late 1990s, wherein some super speciality courses were of 2 years duration as against some courses of 3 years duration.
In order to bring parity, the Council in its Postgraduate Regulations had categorically provided for a uniform duration for all the super speciality courses as of 3 years. It was also decided that but for the certain super speciality courses in AIIMS, New Delhi, which are of 5 years duration wherein a student is admitted directly after his MBBS qualification, all other super speciality courses were brought within the ambit of the Postgraduate Regulation whereby the duration of study was prescribed to be of 3 years.

It was further observed by the learned experts that the “Reasons, the Grounds and the Basis” by virtue of which the super speciality courses of 2 years duration were altered to 3 years duration exist even today. Reverting back to the same situation would definitely amount to a “Retrograde Step”.
The informational expansion of the various super specialities in last 10 years has been mind boggling. The spate with which new “Dimensions, Techniques and Informational Inputs” have been added up, it is imperative that the same is provided within the curricular framework of the super speciality courses. In the teeth of expansion of the “Informational Inclusions” in the curriculum, the period of training is expected to be commensurate with the same.
It was also observed that the aim of a super speciality course is to generate a “Competent and Confident Consultant Super Specialist, who is expected to be “On his own” pertaining to the various “Advanced Competencies” in his speciality. He is expected to be the “Last Word” when it comes to dispensation by virtue of “Knowledge, Skill and Application” at his disposal in terms of the super speciality qualification gained/possessed by him.
Keeping this in mind, the experts were of the considered opinion that any alteration in terms of reduction of the time schedule would definitely lead to a compromise with the desired levels of quality education and also the expected outcomes thereof.

In view of the emphatic, unambiguous and settled position adopted by the competent authorities in the Council duly approved by its General Body, it is neither open nor permissible for the Council to concede to the requisition which has been made by the National Board of Examinations vide their communication dated 06.11.2008 to Govt. of India. This position may be made known to the Govt. of India in response to their
communication dated 27.01.2009.”

Dr. Sailendra  on June 4th, 2009

The latest MCI meeting excerpts are so obnoxious and inhuman. MCI might be deeply engrossed in money (Pvt. Medical colleges are giving very high under-table ransoms). It’s bewildering that in a sovereign, democratic republic like India money is acting viciosly. Who is resposible for that. WE, LAWYERS, INHUMAN POLITICIANS, ETC. ETC. Judicial support is earnestly required to curb and control this brutal MCI.

Dr Prasanna  on June 8th, 2009

Well, Do we all have to keep cribing about this unfortunate situation or can we do something about it. definitly the recommendation of one commitee is not the ultimate,no general body meeting can deside our fate.What about the Gazzete notification is it of any value or not.
if not why cant we go to court againts DNB board itself( indirectly the ministry of Health and family welfare) for cheating us by making false propaganda and ruining our lives. somebody should be made accountable for all this mess

rahul  on June 9th, 2009

Hi this is RG again
I read the front page article on times of INDIA on 7th june 09 showing how the epitome of corruption Dr.KD has again being made the incharge of MCI after being removed from the same post in 2001 for being corrupt.
This issue is being raised as private medical colleges and even some govt. institutions are hand in glove with the MCI. any that exposes the standard of teaching and training in these So called MCI recognised institutes. what happened in Chennai seems to be an tip of the iceberg only.
But now I think we should put up against the DNB borad also for putting forth the false promises on annual basis.
Somebody somewhere has to be made accountable at least for God sake if not for candidates sake.

Dr RAJ KHOSALA  on July 21st, 2009

Dear DNBians
I agree that we should also put a case agst National Board for fooling us on DNB equivalence to MD/MS.I passed DNB in Respiratory Diseases competing with candidates who had done DM from Chandigarh and now I am no worth taking even Lect. post in a medical college.What a pity?It amy be possible that even MCI & Nat board are hand in glove as both are under Min Of H&FW ,headed by a politician and most of private medical colleges are owned by politician who regularly bribe MCI inspectors for increasing seats ,opening MD/MS & even M.Ch.These members of MCI rae on board of private medical colleges and take hefty money as VC/PROF Salary to help them out.One Dr Ved Prakash Mishra,Chairman PG COMMITTEE MCI is also Vice Chancellor of Datta Meghe Deemed Medical University.They see no conflict of interest here and enjoy the status.This can happen only in India,

rg  on July 23rd, 2009

dear Dr.Raj
I really feel for you and can understand what u might be going through,moreover U r the one who wants to join the teaching post vs your contemporary DM candidate who would surely be intertested in going for the private practice.
A court case in Karnataka high court regarding the issue has just completed and the decision is still pending.??? wait for that as we all have no other alternative as no one in the government is going to listen to us.

wish u luck
Dr.RG

rohit  on August 1st, 2009

hi evone,i went through all of your comments,and i truly agree with you all.what can i say,just want let you all know that do not leave the hope.coz hope is evrything.good luck

RAM PRASAD  on August 29th, 2009

MCI is headed by corrupt President Ketan Deasai who was removed by court from its post but again won election to occupy the post.All MCI members under him are busy in minting money from private medical college & quality of medical education fro which it eas established has gone to dogs.See link – http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS/City/Ahmedabad/Is-Ketan-Desai-king-of-capitation-fee/articleshow/4629597.cms

DR.MAMTA AGRAWAL  on September 17th, 2009

I HAVE PASSED DNB FINAL BUT REFUSED AP POST. WHAT IAM SUPPOSED TO DO

RAM PRASAD  on September 24th, 2009

Mamta MCI is refusing to accept the equivalance even now.The problem will be solved only if MCI is scrapped as is in the news.Without this future of DNB Teachers is bleak.Nat Board falsely gives impression that its eqivalent to DNB.Go to following link :
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/opinions/4942738.cms#write)

Dr. Vipin  on September 24th, 2009

Dr. Mamta,
Good Day, The whole of the controversy between MCI and DNB revolves around one single point.According to Teacher eligibility qualification 1998, as per MCI web site, they say-DNB qualification awarded after due examination and fulfilling one year research experience. Now to any rational human being this simply means-you have done ur DNB,you have done ur thesis during DNB ,You sit for ur exam,clear it,and that’s it.Because DNB is given only after the criteria of exam clearance and after research is submitted.But MCI distorts this in another way.It says you have done ur DNB,then do 1 more year research in an MCI recognised college,then u are equal to MD/MS.Now MD/MS have done ug teaching during their PGstudentship for 3 years.And DNB people during their training do not do any ug teaching during their studenrtship,so to equalise the things a DNB+1Yr. research has to do 3 year more of residency in MCI recognised medical college then u are eligible for AP ship.So that is why u have been refused AP post. The only thing is either keep on working like this to satisfy MCI criteria or pray that it be scrapped and replaced by National Human Resource Council.

vivek  on October 8th, 2009

To give you some nice info, that if you go for addition of your DNB degree on your MBBS certificate by MCI, they do same and mention it as MD (National Boards, ….and your subject). I got this pleasent surprise in early 2008. Also, legally that makes our case stronger, isn`t it?

Kumar  on October 21st, 2009

I hope the new health ministry will be able to solve the problem.

chida  on November 1st, 2009

very good forum /usefull information circulated

keep it up

cheers

chida

rahul  on November 8th, 2009

it is very unfortunate that mci has applied for revertal of the notification of gazzette of india
but who is responsible ???
should the people who came forth with the notification be asked if they were that foolish to issue it in the first place

should they be not held responsible for the same and held accountable for cheating on the candidates??

why every six months or a year a new notification is issued??

at least PM should be fed with the facts other than DR.KETAN DESAI who has the corrupt entry the power highs and is able to manuplate any thing and any body
hope for the best

rahul  on November 25th, 2009

hi
what has been the news from karnataka high court is the judgement out or still like all other cases it is still lingering on

what about the gazate of India notification is it still of value or ???? govt has taken us for the ride

jayasree  on December 3rd, 2009

i have been working in a private medical college in puduchery for the past4.5years. last year mci recognized me as a SR.alas this year iam not even qualified for that.what to do about it?

rahul  on December 7th, 2009

dear jayshree
why do you wnat to take it like that GO TO COURT and see what hapens

any option  on January 2nd, 2010

The issue of DNB equivalence to MD is a long pending. Few Court Cases have already been lodged. But Dear Doctors even today a PG earns more stipend than the salary of a MD/DNB Doctor. Moral of the Story – All the Doctors both MD & DNB are being be-fooled by Govt. Our Salaries/Wages are so low. THE ONLY REASON IS DOCTORS HAVE NEVER UNITED ON A SINGLE PLATFORM. SO MUST NOT COMPARE, COMPLAIN & CRITICIZE.

WE ARE WHAT WHAT WE DESERVE AND ASPIRE FOR

guest  on January 18th, 2010

so why the learned MD/DNB doctors left the forum and not bothered to answer 2 Jan 2010 guests entry

any one  on January 18th, 2010

so why the learned MD/DNB doctors left the forum and not bothered to answer 2 Jan 2010 guests entry

rahul  on February 5th, 2010

can you please tell me the exact schedule of DNB examination and code of conduct of it

MEERA ROWTHER  on February 12th, 2010

i am a final year medical student and i am planning to do DNB IN ANY COURSE. can anyone tell me all courses that are available in DNB and what about the superspeciality.

MEERA ROWTHER  on February 12th, 2010

guys why are you all worry about post in medical college. just finish your DNB and go in for private practice
did u guys found any problem in private practice

sucessful DNBian  on February 22nd, 2010

Let MCI MD people do poor teacher,s job.All DNB in clinical subjects do private practise.I am DNB in Pulmonology and doing private practise.Our city has 5MD Chest & even a DM in Resp Med from PGI Chandigarh.But they are all behind in Knowledge that we DNB people possess.I own mercedes & a big chest hospital.Patient who have shown to these people come for second opinion to me.Nobody can take away knowledge from you that you have gained not even Ketan Desai.He may derecognise DNB not the clinical accumen that we DNBian possess.So cheers forget teachers job and start your ethical private practise.Chase excellence ,sucess and money follows.

rahul  on February 26th, 2010

I need some information on any progress in the headway between DNB Vs Mch.Kindly update if there is any new thing

Dr. Yugin Gupte  on March 4th, 2010

Why are all doctors bothered about getting into this debate about getting into medical colleges at all? Are there so many vacancies to accomodate all the DNB passed candidates in medical colleges? Go into private practcice. It is much more rewarding and satisfying.than jobs in medical colleges.

Sanjeev  on March 7th, 2010

Surprsingly DNB has more stringent and strict regulations than MCI but the value of Degree of DNB has been given inferior status which is evident from the facts discussed above therefore there is a fight for equal status.

Further DNB Pass reslus are very poor 10-25% which as per DNB is due to poor training of students suggest that the institutes running DNB are far inferior than Medical colleges.
Only Sufferrer in these circumstances is the student only. Therefore, DNB Degrees should be closed with immediate effect as students are not getting benefited by these tussels and attitude of NBE and MCU.

rajsachar  on March 24th, 2010

pl see judgement of Honble High Court Of Gujarat. plsend a mail to me at rajsachar@gmail.com and I will send a copy of the judgement.
Prof R K Sachar FAMS
91936918254

rahul  on April 14th, 2010

hi this is for all DNB candidates and specially for sanjeev agreed DNB has a pass percentage of 15-20% without any favours as is the case with MD MS Mch DM candidates but then ones who have passed why should they be discriminated.

If u want to telll me all those who are doing MD MS DM are better please do some introspection and u’ll get the true answers !!!!!!!!

This is to update that the order passed by Gujarat High court is a very welcome step,and at last God has done some justice.
I want to compliment that candidate who belived in himself and had the conviction to challange the discrimination in the court. At last the justice is done
I strongly believe that still the fight is not over as the corrupt MCI would not be able to swallow this and they would go all out to do some hanky panky as they have been doing in the past,as they strongly believe that they are above the constitution of India b’cse of the MONEY POWER. Now lets see who wins Truth OR the MONEY POWER,let God decide.
Finally again congrats to the Gujarat high court in understanding the plight of the DNB candidates.

sameermrmc  on April 17th, 2010

gazette of india directives have no effect on MCI yesterday they didnt consider me for the post of SR saying MCI doesnot consider DNB from hospitals. God knows when this unilateral behaviour of MCI ends. wake up guys

rajsachar  on April 22nd, 2010

I am posting the correspondence I have been having with MCI. It might be of interest to some.
Prof R K Sachar FAMS
To
Dr P Prassanaraj
Joint Secretary
Designated Public Information Officer (RTI)
Medical Council of India
New Delhi.

Subject: Information under RTI

Sir,
I wish to draw your kind attention to the minutes of the Executive Committee of MCI meeting held on 12th January, 2010, item # 44 wherein in the list of the faculty not counted, at serial # 6 my name Dr Raj Kumar Sachhar (spelt wrongly) figures, with the reason “Does not possess the prescribed academic qualification”. It is requested that I may kindly be informed as to on what basis this observation has been made. I am making this request under the Right to Information Act. The necessary fee is enclosed vide Indian postal order #83E 137972 02 March 22010 dated for Rupees Ten only.
I want to bring to your kind notice that I qualified at the National Board of examination in the broad specialty of Community Health in 1980 and again in 1983. It is also pointed out that this qualification is included in MCIs “Teachers Eligibility Qualification” in schedule II at item number 14. It is also pointed out that when I obtained these qualifications there were no stipulations regarding equivalence.
It is also brought to your notice that prior to my being appointed to the faculty in 1981, I worked as demonstrator for one year against a recognized teaching post in a medical college. Since 01 April I have working on the faculty of various medical colleges as lecturer, reader and professor. During these 29 odd years I have faced many inspections by MCI and the fact that I do not posses the prescribed qualifications was never pointed out. I have also been issued the MCI smart card as Professor Community Medicine ref # DAYCOM 20002.
This arbitrary action of the MCI infringes my right to gainful employment and is violation of human rights. Hence if my grievance is not redressed forthwith I will have to approach the National Human Rights Commission.
I have been appointed MCI inspector on a couple of occasions and was the chairman of the MCI sub committee on curriculum revision in community medicine.

Tanking you

Yours truly,

Dr. R K Sachar
Dated 02 March 2010
Attached Postal order and a brief statement of facts.
To
Dr A R N Setalvad
Appelate Authority under RTI
Secretary
Medical Council of India
New Delhi.

Subject: Information under RTI
Ref. MCI-34(1)/2009-(RTI)med./2019 dated 9/4/10

Sir,
With ref to above I have been informed that as per Minimum qualifications for Teachers in Medical Institutions Regulations, 1998 I do not possess prescribed academic qualifications for post of Professor in Community Medicine.
1) Please inform me that whether the Minimum qualifications for Teachers Medical Institutions Regulations, 1998 has a “Schedule -II?”
2) Does this schedule II start with the following preamble- The following qualifications be treated at par with M.D/M.S awarded by Indian Universities?
3) Does this schedule II of Minimum qualifications for Teachers in Medical Institutions Regulations, 1998 at para 14 has the following noting “M.A.M.S./M.N.A.M.S./D.N.B. qualification when granted on or after Ist June 1976 granted by National Board of Examination, New Delhi after due examination and fulfilling one year research experience.” ?
4) Is this schedule II of Minimum qualifications for Teachers in Medical Institutions Regulations, 1998 still valid?
5) Since I possess the qualifications mentioned at para 14 of schedule II why I have I not been considered as a professor in Community Medicine by the inspector?
6) Why has the inspectors decision been upheld by the PIO?
I am seeking this information under the RTI ACT and once again I am attaching the prescribed fees vide postal order________________________________
Thanking you
Yours truly,
Dr. R K Sachar FAMS
Dated 16 April 2010

To
Dr A R N Setalvad
Appelate Authority under RTI
Secretary
Medical Council of India
New Delhi.

Subject: Information under RTI (Additional)
Ref. MCI-34(1)/2009-(RTI)med./2019 dated 9/4/10

Sir,
In continuation of my query dated 16 April (copy attached). I request for the following additional information under RTI.

1. If I do not have prescribed academic qualifications what was the basis of accepting me as a teacher (Lecturer, Reader and Professor) in different MCI inspections from 1981 till 2008? These inspections pertain to Christian Medical College Ludhiana and from 1988 onwards in Dayanand Medical College Ludhiana. Most recent dates of inspections are October 2001 for standard of examination of MD Community Medicine, 12 & 13 January 2007 and 16 October 20008 for MBBS.

2. If I do not have prescribed academic qualifications what was the basis of appointing me as MCI inspector for MBBS in PSG Medical College Coimbatore in 1994 and earlier for Railway Hospital Bhusaval?

3. If I do not have prescribed academic qualifications what was the basis of appointing me Chairman of MCI sub committee on Curriculum revision in Community Medicine?

4. If I do not have prescribed academic qualifications what was the basis of issuing me the smart card under your signature as Professor Community Medicine #DAYCOM20002? This card was ignored by the inspector.

I seek this additional information under RTI Act and I am enclosing additional fees vide IPO ____________________________

Thanking you
Yours truly,
Dr. R K Sachar FAMS
Dated 22 April 2010

rahul  on April 23rd, 2010

hi the point retreriated MCI Boss a corrupt person arrested today for accepting bribe ????

What else can we expect from MCI

dr anmumani  on April 25th, 2010

Gold seized from MCI Chief
Chennai | Saturday, Apr 24 2010 IST

The CBI has allegedly seized a whopping Rs 1,801.50 crore and 1.5 tonnes of gold jewellery from Medical Council of India (MCI) president Dr Ketan Desai, who was arrested on April 22 on graft charges.

The CBI, which had secured five-day custody of the MCI Chief, interrogated him throughout last night and made the seizure of cash and gold from his Delhi and Ahmedabad residences and lockers in the presence of Bank and Postal department officials.

The investigating agency was looking for more skeletons in his the cuboard as it was quizing Dr Desai on various irregularities in according permission to self-financing medical colleges in the country.

Sources close to the CBI here said the MCI Chief would be taken to Ahmedabad tomorrow for more searches. Interrogation so far has given the impression that the CBI might seize close to Rs 2,500 crore from him.

Dr Desai, who initially refused to cooperate with the investigating agency stating that he had influence in the Prime Minister’s Office and was close to the power centre, started spilling the beans as the interrogation progressed.

He was, however, giving contradictory statements when the agency grilled him about places where he was keeping the ill-gotten money.

He revealed some places in Haryana, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh, the sources said.

Files and documents seized revealed that the MCI Chief had granted permission to medical colleges by manipulating records.

Colleges, which had submitted applications after the cut-off dates, had also been accorded sanction for a price ranging from Rs 25 to Rs 30 crore, the sources added.

– (UNI) — 24MS33.xml

A P Bhat  on April 25th, 2010

The corrupt MCI Chairman was just bullying on DNB issue as he had no role in giving accreditation to the courses ,also the unscrupulous private colleges supporting him as it partially blocks the demand in thir auction of PG seats.High time MCi is cleansed
thoughouly

rahul  on May 15th, 2010

dear friends
At last a ray of hope and justice may be done at last.MCi is going to b history and may be now the DNB will gets its due share provided it is projected in the right way to Mr.Gulam Nabi Azad ,who in my view had real guts to expose MCI president.No one really no one before him had the guts though every body knew Dr.Desai’s credentials.
Hats of to Mr Minister

wish him all the best and I really request him to take note of the plight of the DNb candidates so that they don’t suffer and their hard work is recognised at last!!!!

dratoms  on June 10th, 2010

I hope the DNB vs MCI tussle has ended now that there is no MCI. It was probably the most corrupt national body in the entire country and for a long time. While giving their reasons for opposing DNB equivalence I couldn’t help lauging aloud at the crap that they have so beautifully written. All the reasons look so genuine on paper. But less than 10% of the medical colleges that MCI has recognised will meet those stipulations. But they continue to enjoy its recognition. All MCI has ever done is ignore its own rules for money. Let them rot in hell.

rajsachar  on June 17th, 2010

The MCI assessment teams are now accepting DNB faculty. Two such instances have been reported from Kerala.

rahul  on June 17th, 2010

dear rajsacher
kindly update the exact information as it will go a long way in helping others

Dr.rahul

rajsachar  on June 23rd, 2010

Dear Rahul
Pl wait for a couple of weeks and u can expect a notification. However if u are due for inspection keep a copy of gazette notification and one of Gujarat High Court ruling handy.
Prof Raj Sachar FAMS

Prof Raj Sachar FAMS  on June 23rd, 2010

Ex-MCI chief granted bail but arrested afresh in DA case
NEW DELHI: A Delhi court on Tuesday granted bail to former Medical Council of India (MCI) president Ketan Desai in a corruption case but he would not be released as CBI arrested him afresh for allegedly possessing disproportionate assets.

Special Judge Rajnish Bhatnagar allowed a plea of Desai to grant him bail as CBI has failed to file a chargesheet against him within the prescribed limit of 60 days.

Within minutes of the court’s order, CBI arrested Desai in another case registered against him for allegedly possessing disproportionate assets.

CBI had registered the DA case against Desai and his wife and mother in May for having assets worth over Rs 24 crore, more than the known sources of their income.

The court sent Desai to 14 days judicial custody. The former MCI president was arrested on April 22 by CBI along with three others for allegedly accepting a bribe of Rs two crore to give permission to Gyan Sagar Medical College in Patiala to recruit a fresh batch of students.

The Delhi High Court had earlier granted bail to Sukhwinder Singh, owner of Gyan Sagar Medical College, as also to Kanwaljit Singh, one of the professors of the college and J P Singh, an alleged tout involved in the scam.

All the four have been booked under the Prevention of Corruption Act dealing with inducing a public servant to accept bribe, criminal misconduct and payment of money.

Based on contents of intercepted telephonic calls made among the accused, CBI had laid a trap outside the south Delhi residence of J P Singh, which led to his arrest and that of Kanwaljit and others.

NEW DELHI: The Central Bureau of Investigation, probing malpractices in the Medical Council of India (MCI), has found two cases in which health ministry connived at or superseded the MCI recommendation while granting affiliation to medical colleges for money.

The CBI has questioned top ministry officials in connection with the scam, but made no arrests as the sleuths say that they are still in the process of examining their statements.

The CBI conducted raids at Bareilly’s Rohilkhand Medical College and Hospital (RMCH) and Sri Ram Murti Smarak Institute of Medical Sciences (SRMSIMS) in Uttar Pradesh on May 26 where it was revealed that both institutes were denied MCI approval at least thrice before they got the nod in 2007 and 2009. “The investigations revealed that MCI denied them permission thrice, but later the ministry gave them the nod,” said a CBI official adding that these were the only two cases where the involvement of ministry officials has been detected.

The official said, “The ministry had no mechanism to verify the objections raised by MCI. Yet, they went ahead and gave them the permission to operate. It has also been learnt that MCI officials under scanner had demanded a huge sum of money from the two colleges to give an all clear report to the ministry which ultimately would have granted them the affiliation.”

The agency claims to have registered several cases in connection with the multi-crore scam against the colleges which were favored by former MCI chief Ketan Desai. Desai was arrested in April this year for allegedly demanding a bribe of Rs 2 crore from a college for granting it recognition. The cases, the agency said, have been registered at Indore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Pune, Kolkata, Bathinda and Lucknow.

The CBI also said that it has received a number of complaints from candidates seeking admission to these colleges and these are being examined. “The focus at present is to examine the cases where MCI granted permission to colleges in the last three years. More cases will be registered later,” said a CBI official.

“There are more than 60 such colleges which are under the scanner and our teams are visiting all of them. There are several institutes which have overcome the lacunae with the passage of time but still we need to question them regarding the affiliation and money paid by them to MCI,” the official added.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/MCI-scam-CBI-finds-ministry-link-in-2-cases/articleshow/6076836.cms

drbinojv  on July 5th, 2010

whwt happened to DNB faculty after new BOG took in charge of mci?
There is a minority DNB faculty group:
– post diploma candidates gained DNB from MCI recogonised postgaduate speciality departments after undergoing training along with MD/MS candidates
they have minimum four years teaching experience in case of undergraduates-more than that of MD or MS.
whether they need additional teaching experirnce after DNB
please give information

MADHU.J  on July 9th, 2010

I wish to know whether DNB is accepted as equivalent to MD/MS by the new board of governors. If so I would request to send a copy of DNB status to all medical colleges as we DNB holders have suffered from the earlier directors of MCI.

drsomasaha  on January 2nd, 2011

I am a DNB degree holder in medicine.Despite of repeated cmmunicatin with MCI for the post of Assitant professor i am till date workng as Senior Resident in a Medical College as there is no clear cut Guide lines fr the teaching post by MCI.

rahul  on January 19th, 2011

If u now go on the newere website of MCI the amendment to the minimum teachers qualification part u will get some idea about the DNB status.
But still the predujice does exist. Like those candidates who have done DNB from the medical college do not need any further experience for the appoint ment but in the case of drsomasaha it should not be very difficult specially if he is working at a medical college as registerar.

Still we have to go a long way till DNB is made equvilvalent to MD/MS .
At least now a DNB candidate can apply directly for MCH exam — so it is eqvivalent
on what rationale they have not excepted it to equal for teaching post still is not clear???
hope the better sense prevails.

ZUNAIRA  on January 27th, 2011

to all respected members i want to know is there any importance of DNB at international level particularly in gulf countries
lease answer my query ….i am eagerly waiting…

Dr. G. Hanumanlu  on April 24th, 2011

MCI RECOGNITION TO NON MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL COURSES ?
It is ridiculous that the Medical Council of India is according recognition to hospital management / administration courses consisting of curriculum such as Accounts, Economics, Finance, Information & communication systems etc. What jurisdiction does the MCI has over such courses? Is MCI meant to interfere / recognize non Medical professional courses? Will it also recognize Biology, Political sciences and Commerce courses if inspection fee …… is paid?

It should stop poking its nose to recognize /
derecognize any non medical professional(hospital management/administration)courses.

skmane  on December 21st, 2011

FCPS DEGREE & DIPLOMA COURSES are recognised as post graduate degrees in ENGLAND, KANADA,KENYA.These are the post graduate degrres which are already recognised by Supreme court as equal to all other post graduate degrees.
DR.S.K.MANE

mohdshahid_sc  on April 19th, 2012

To respected members I want to inform you all and wanted all the MS Anatomy post graduates to note that till 2000 or so pgs in anatomy use to get MS Anatomy degree then MCI suddenly started giving MD Anatomy for Anatomy Post Graduates, before I did not realise the importance of it at international level particularly in gulf countries but recently I came to know that in UAE ,KSA and Bahrain , MS Anatomy will be given a lecturer post whatever is the experience and MD Anatomy will be given a asst or assoc or prof post according to the experience though both are same but who is going to explain to them (MS according to them is master of science and MD is doctor of Medicine) though this is not the case for those few fortunate MS pgs who got job as asst prof or even prof post in UAE.
.I wanted to know why MCI changed the name of the degree if it did, it should also revert back and give or change the name on the degree from MS to MD Anatomy so that everybody should be treated equally at national and international level need the help and comments from all those people who can help the ones with MS Anatomy degree and also I want the name and address of all the MS Anatomy pg so that all of us can approach the MCI in a proper way because I know two cases were Dr Gulraiz from Aligarh Muslim University and Dr Meena Negi AIIMS got there degree changed from MS to MD Anatomy but now I want to know whom I should approach MCI or the NTRUHS.